Sometimes I send unsolicited profile advice out into the world to submissive men who seem sincere, but who are not presenting themselves at all well. The email is usually triggered by them attracting my attention in some way (an interesting comment in a discussion, them showing up in ‘who’s viewing me’ on CM, or something similar). This leads me to take a look at their profile, where sometimes, I get that confused look on my face (“Eh?”), or sometimes I do a big double facepalm, and I just know that they have no idea that they are doing themselves a huge disservice with their presentation.
There is no ‘one fits all’ way of doing a profile of course, and I’m no expert, but I know what I like and have seen enough comments from other dominant women to have a reasonably good idea of what will work and what really really won’t.
There is a veritable goldmine of profile advice out there, much of it formulaic (which I hate, personally but which is useful for those who *really* have no idea), so I am really only adding to the noise.
Profiles are essentially a form of marketing, and if I was your marketing consultant (and IF you are looking for an actual relationship (big assumption here)), I’d be suggesting that what you want to convey, really is something akin to this:
I’m a fabulous catch, ladies, here’s who I am (insert your stellar qualities below):
- Hellishly funny
- Interesting personality
- Emotionally stable
- Well rounded
- Great social skills
- Have a life
- Someone you will be proud to introduce to your friends
- … oh, all that, and I’m submissive… boo ya!
Note that I said that you want to convey that, not make a list like I have done above. It really doesn’t work to say “I’m funny”: BE funny. Don’t say “I’m well read”: Talk a little about your favourite books. Don’t say “I’m interesting”: BE interesting etc etc. Give your target market readers enough to pique their interest and THEN go that one step further to leave them thinking: ‘Hmmm… ok, I’d like to know more about him…’
You are putting yourself in the same basket with every other submissive if you say “I’m a submissive who wants blah blah etc”. Really, most women don’t want ‘a submissive’, they want a fabulous man *who submits to them*… big difference. I assume from your side, you want a fabulous woman to whom you can submit, vs ‘a Domme’ who you will submit to because, well, she’s a Domme!
Also (do I need to say it? I do! *sigh*) NO DICK PICS! Seriously. Just don’t.
Having said all that, I can’t possibly tell anyone how to do one of those ‘hell yeah!’ profiles, the ones that make me go all swoony, the ones that make me want to write a breathless “OMG LOVE!” note to them because, actually, the key for me is “Be a man I want to know, and then present the quirky, original parts of you that make you YOU, not some cookie cutter bunch of blah blah blah that you think women want to hear” (yes, I totally get the irony here, but I can only do what I can do!). But I *can* tell you to use your profile to present a little of *who you are* as a man, friend, partner, because this is your first impression, let it be one that shows you off a little.
If you are curious as to what I consider a good profile, you can look at this thread if you are a member of Fetlife.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again to emphasise how participation and a good profile can work for you: I contacted my last boy out of the blue when a quirky comment he made about movies on Fetlife prompted me to go and look at his details. His profile completely floored me with its intelligence, clever humour, originality and unique approach, and I wrote him a cute little note telling him that I thought it was just about perfect. And so, it began.
For much more detailed practical and actionable guidance for writing a great profile that will help you attract the dominant of your dreams, grab my book:
There is tension between revealing enough to sound interesting, but not so much as to identify oneself, or to come across as “bragging”. Also, people feel compelled to say a little about what WIITWD means to them, which for beginners with little real experience will always be tentative or based on fantasy. (And a large number of women are turned off by “no experience”.)
While having a poorly written profile can hurt one's “chances”, I'm not convinced that putting effort into writing a really good one pays off (for beginning male s-types interested in female d-types). I doubt that many d-type women actually contact s-type men out of the blue based on their profiles, unless they're very local (and even then.) Typically men will make the first contact, so it is surprising to see so many d-type women with effectively empty (or openly unfriendly) profiles.
Also: all the profile advice for s-type men I've seen makes two assumptions (i) they're looking for a primary relationship with a dominant woman. Sometimes people just want friends, or play partners. (ii) They're unpartnered beginners. But sometimes people are experienced, happily partnered, have an “online record” and still would be happy to make d-type friends, maybe play with them once in a while. A good profile for this purpose would be different, but I never see this discussed.
*arm waves crossly* And JUST why isn't my profile mentioned *laughs* I have possibly the laziest most ill thought out profile EVAH!
My FetLife profile has been basically empty for a while now, and I have an outdated OKCupid that I've never really felt happy with. I probably over-think it. When I had a FetLife profile I got the occasional compliment, but it just didn't feel right!
To your point about marketing, the question that stops me is “Who am I writing for?” Am I writing for potential friends? For people I meet at cons? For potential partners? Everyone? Myself? Who do I *want* to write this profile for?
@Anonymous – I think you have it backwards.
In a way, dominant women don't “need” to have profiles, because it's a buyers' market. There are far more straight/bi submissive men looking for straight/bi dominant women, so it's more likely that the men will come to them.
Conversely, when a submissive man cold-contacts a dominant woman, she is going to thin-slice her interest in him based on the message, and then evaluate whether he's worth replying to based on his profile. Since there's a lower signal-to-noise ratio in cold-calls from submissive men, the women need more information to figure out who to talk to.
I'm probably making a few incorrect assumptions here, because I am neither a dominant woman nor (generally) a submissive man who cold-contacts people on the internet. (And when I do, it's usually because I liked her profile–so for me, I like everyone to have a nice profile!)
Kien: “There is tension between revealing enough to sound interesting, but not so much as to identify oneself, or to come across as “bragging”. Also, people feel compelled to say a little about what WIITWD means to them, which for beginners with little real experience will always be tentative or based on fantasy.”
I agree, which is why I sometimes help them out. There are some who I think are genuinely lovely men, but who have gone down the rabbit hole and suddenly lose all sense of reality and perspective.
“And a large number of women are turned off by “no experience”.”
That might be your observation. It's not mine… discussions about this seem to go about 50-50. But if he has no experience, it's even MORE important that he present himself as a well balanced, stable, attractive man.
“While having a poorly written profile can hurt one's “chances”, I'm not convinced that putting effort into writing a really good one pays off”
That's not my experience. It only has to pay off *once* and it's not like you have to cough up a lung to do it, so it is definitely absolutely 100% worth putting some effort into it. It's not just about cold calling, either. If someone contacts me, the first thing I do is look at his profile.
Re the cold calling from my side, I have found one wonderful relationship and one of my best friends based on my cold calling boys with stellar profiles. I have also made some lovely casual friends through doing this.
However I would point out that I was led to cold call those boys because they attracted my attention with some kind of presence in discussions. A profile all on its own is unlikely to get much 'out of the blue' attention, no matter how good.
“Typically men will make the first contact, so it is surprising to see so many d-type women with effectively empty (or openly unfriendly) profiles.”
It's an interesting point because my first reaction is 'they don't need to, they get enough attention without it', but I have to say on second thought that IF they had an attractive profile, dense and rich and clever, they might attract more quality men vs the 'she'll do' crowd. I have no idea if that's true or not.
My profile is empty because I figure I put a hell of a lot of myself out there and it is easy to find. All *that* is my profile.
“Also: all the profile advice for s-type men I've seen makes two assumptions (i) they're looking for a primary relationship with a dominant woman. Sometimes people just want friends, or play partners. (ii) They're unpartnered beginners.”
Ha, that's an easy one!! That's because they are the ones who:
a) whine about not being able to find what they are looking for
b) ask for help and
c) don't have the experience/friends/advice to understand that what they have written totally sucks!
Coug: “*arm waves crossly* And JUST why isn't my profile mentioned *laughs* I have possibly the laziest most ill thought out profile EVAH!”
*laugh* When I start a discussion on the “Laziest, most ill thought out profiles EVAH!”, you will be first on the list, I promise!!
submissivedude: “When I had a FetLife profile I got the occasional compliment, but it just didn't feel right!”
Compliments are great, so you were obviously hitting some buttons. But I have no illusions about profiles: they are frigging hard to write well.
“To your point about marketing, the question that stops me is “Who am I writing for?” Am I writing for potential friends? For people I meet at cons? For potential partners? Everyone? Myself? Who do I *want* to write this profile for? I dunno!”
*smile* Excellent point and fits into Kien's one above about who profile *advice* is always written for. If you don't know what you want the result to be, it makes it much harder to figure out what you want to say.
Thanks Ferns. And, to address both something you touched on and @submissivedude's earlier comment: not all beginning submissive guys out there are so “desperate” they'll hit on any D woman, regardless of profile. Profiles do matter for D-women too, especially if they want to draw the attention of the (shall we say) more “thoughtful” guys.
Early on I tried to make my FL profile more “witty” or “artsy”, but I always ended up feeling it misrepresented me. So now it is brief, dry, stable and boring. I figure I'll meet people in real life if at all, and I comment fairly often anyway. (And I'm happily partnered.)
“I have also made some lovely casual friends through doing this.” [cold-emailing].
My heart sunk a little. Of course, it's geography, right? They're all in your neck of the woods, right? (Assuming you don't just mean email friends).
Kien: “”My heart sunk a little.”
“Of course, it's geography, right? They're all in your neck of the woods, right? (Assuming you don't just mean email friends).”
Nope, they are not in my neck of the woods. My best submissive male friend is oceans away. We email pretty much every day, sometimes several times a day, and get on the phone (less frequently), and have done for years now. My casual friends likewise are not nearby, but I know they are there for me if I need them, and vice versa.
Frankly, I think distance makes those friendships much easier for reasons both simple and complex.
Because in close to three years of posting activity I have *never* been contacted by PM by any other member of a kink site (based on my profile or on something I posted), unless I initiated the exchange. And you've just told me that that does happen.
I'm mildly curious–I assume you *have* met them face-to-face, yes? Maybe played with them? I can actually relate to what you said–my vanilla friends live all over the US, the closest one about 500mi (800km) away.
Submissivedude: “In a way, dominant women don't “need” to have profiles, because it's a buyers' market. There are far more straight/bi submissive men looking for straight/bi dominant women, so it's more likely that the men will come to them.”
Yeah, they're going to get more random messages, but if a Dommes does not market herself properly the chances of her being contacted by the sort of guy she wants will go down. If she is waiting for them to come to her, she ought to put thought into who she is attracting.
and honestly this:
* Hellishly funny
* Interesting personality
* Emotionally stable
* Well rounded
* Great social skills
* Have a life
* Someone you will be proud to introduce to your friends
* … oh, all that, and I'm dominant as hell.
is something they could take note of as well.
Kien: “Because in close to three years of posting activity I have *never* been contacted by PM by any other member of a kink site… And you've just told me that that does happen.”
It does happen, yes. Submissivedude said the same. I find it baffling that someone as articulate and thoughtful as you has not been on the receiving end of it. Let me help you with your profile, we can sort you out *laugh*.
I would venture a guess, though, that not being single makes a HUGE difference, so that cuts out, what, 18 months+ of your presence there. I don't contact men who are attached. Not because I am sleazing at the single boys (mostly!), but because I don't want to cause, nor get involved in any drama (whether said drama would occur or not, I have no idea, but for me, it's not worth the trouble to find out).
“I'm mildly curious–I assume you *have* met them face-to-face, yes? Maybe played with them?”
No, I have never met any of them (I say that as if there are hundreds, there aren't… a very few who I would call good friends), though I would meet them in a heartbeat if I could.
I did try very hard to arrange a meeting with one of them in Canada when I was there, but we couldn't make it work (I blame him, of course… I was flying half way across the world, he only had to come a few hours… pffftt…).
I'd add that I send out quite a few random cold-call emails. Compliments on profiles (as I said, this started things with my last boy), appreciation of photos, comments on posts they made, questions about interesting viewpoints, sometimes simple appreciation for their presence etc. I do it with no expectations, just because I feel like it. Sometimes I get no reply, sometimes a quick exchange, sometimes it leads to a conversation… and sometimes, I hit the jackpot! You never know.
Peroxide: “Yeah, they're going to get more random messages, but if a Dommes does not market herself properly the chances of her being contacted by the sort of guy she wants will go down. If she is waiting for them to come to her, she ought to put thought into who she is attracting.”
Yes, that's the crux of my 'knee jerk' first reaction vs my more thoughtful second one.
It is not discussed much, or ever, because it *is* thrown into the 'hell, they don't need or want *more* attention' bucket, but it's a really really good point.
I should try out some draft profiles for myself here on the blog, get comments on them.
I think the first one would look like this:
“I'm awesome, truly. Come get it.” Thoughts?
Ferns said… “I should try out some draft profiles for myself here on the blog, get comments on them.
I think the first one would look like this:
‘I'm awesome, truly. Come get it.’ Thoughts?”
It’s about your cooking. You mean come and get a good dinner.
Satan: “It’s about your cooking. You mean come and get a good dinner.”
*laugh* Yes! Except it's not, and believe me, it would *not* be a good dinner.
I shall have to work on it to avoid similar misunderstandings. What a shame, I'd have sworn it was perfect!
Oh yeah, I did make that sound dramatic and pitiful, didn't I? Momentary lapse…
And you're right–I met my partner four months after joining FL, and my online activity before that had been on CM; I'm sure being partnered plays a role.
Think about what this says about kink sites. Even FL, supposedly for “social networking”, in effect is really a hookup site–once people are partnered, they're of no interest. Also about the vaunted “lifestyle”–supposedly about exploration of sexuality and relationship structures, but, in practice, often more rigid and conservative than the vanilla world.
Kien: “Think about what this says about kink sites. Even FL, supposedly for “social networking”, in effect is really a hookup site–once people are partnered, they're of no interest.”
I think this is overly dramatic and wide reaching also. They are of no interest to ME because I can't be bothered with the 'just in case it causes trouble' thing. They are of possible interest to other couples, casual play partners, local groups, people seeking mentors, others in the same situation etc etc.
Kien: Plus, of course, any single folks who don't think like me!
Kien: I'd add (see, this is why I normally put more thought into my comments!!) that I *do* have partnered submissive men who I correspond with from time to time, but they contacted me *first*.
Sorry–I was typing late, in a weird mood.
You're right–it makes little sense to draw general conclusions from my individual experience and limited observation.
And it's not all that bad–there *are* kinksters I contacted due to their group activity and still correspond with from time to time. And I do get random comments on my public pictures or writing.
Kien: “Sorry–I was typing late, in a weird mood.”
No need to apologise. I did think it was a stretch, but I hope you don't feel too battered from my jumping all over you.
I think some of the men on fetlife whose profiles might make them look like “do me subs” are just excited about expressing their kinky interests. So excited they forget that anyone, female or male, dominant or submissive, wants to be approached like a person, first. I'm sure the ones of that ilk appreciated your tacful advice, and the ones that didn't were, well, probably do me subs. ;)
By the way, nice NaNo progress! You can take a day off, looks like. Are you working on something erotic?
Gregory Allen: “I think some of the men on fetlife whose profiles might make them look like “do me subs” are just excited about expressing their kinky interests. So excited they forget that anyone, female or male, dominant or submissive, wants to be approached like a person, first.”
Yes!! Exactly. It's like they have lost sight of 'people' in this strange new world, and the level of noise everywhere skews their perspective. They genuinely do not see how they are coming across.
I figure if they are ready and willing to hear it (and if they believe me, yet another stranger on the internet!), then that's great. If not, then at least I gave it a go.
Gregory Allen: “By the way, nice NaNo progress! You can take a day off, looks like. Are you working on something erotic?”
Ha! Thank you! And yes, it's essentially erotic fiction 'based on a true story' sort of. And it's also not a 'novel' structure in the traditional story telling sense. I'm (kind of) having fun with it in the 'challenging and difficult and mustn't let myself feel the weight of it' kind of way. Are you doing it also, and if so how's it going?
I'm not doing NaNo. The pressure of word counts wouldn't work well for me. I make myself sit and write for a period of time, but I don't worry about how much I write. That seeems to work best for me.
I love how popular NaNo has gotten over the years, though. I think it's introduced a lot of people to the, as you put it, 'fun in the challenging and difficult and mustn't let myself feel the weight of it kind of way.' That sums up writing pretty well. It's great fun if you can keep it from driving you crazy. Sounds like you're in the right mindset for the writing of a first draft, letting yourself explore and go in different directions. I'll send you a friend request on fetlife, and you can take a look at the writing group I started there. If you find it interesting, feel free to join!
Gregory Allen: “I'm not doing NaNo. The pressure of word counts wouldn't work well for me.”
Yes, I can understand that. I think the collective goal helps me, even though I am not really participating in any practical way with the NaNo group/s.
“I love how popular NaNo has gotten over the years, though.”
I know! I read their history page… started out with a couple of guys and had 200,000 participants last year! Amazing.
“I'll send you a friend request on fetlife, and you can take a look at the writing group I started there. If you find it interesting, feel free to join!”
I’m not sure. You’re a girl right? So I thought from your pic. So then I thought, why the name Gregory? So I looked at your profile. Ok you’re male. So I look once more. I’m still not sure.
Sorry. I’ll get back to the discussion.
You said some men…
“…forget that anyone, female or male, dominant or submissive, wants to be approached like a person, first…”
Yes everyone wants you to look on them as a person. How could anyone forget that? They couldn’t. Not for real. It’s a joke. That’s all. So I thought. That was before I came to places like this. Now I see it’s no joke.
My kink is just to please a woman a lot.
I try to think what she feels.
I even try to think what it would be like to be her.
I don’t want to forget that she is a person.
That would turn me off.
Maybe I’m odd.
Are you sure it's a good idea to “market” yourself in writing? (though I do find that list clever) I read a recent article that said the best profiles are the ones where you write NOTHING about yourself. And rather write about qualities you find attractive in women. This will make us come off as confident (yet slight submissive) and not so desperate (yet slightly submissive). Oh yeah, here is that article. Great read http://www.daveglenn.com/2011/03/dave-glenns-guide-to-online-dating/
Just getting into the online dating scene and need all the help I can get
Chase: “Are you sure it's a good idea to “market” yourself in writing?”
Uh oh… this is going to be a long reply. Go get coffee, or wine… yeah, wine is better!
Whatever approach you take in your profile, make no mistake, it's a marketing tool, but I take your point about using it differently. And no, I am not sure.
The advice above is 'Profiles 101' for sincere, genuine men who are actually quite the thing, but who honestly have no idea and they write things that I *know* women will read and go “Oh hell no!”
If you take a look at the Fetlife link above, you will see some profiles that have made me go “Oh yeah!”, and at least a couple of them have prompted me to cold-call the man (“Hey baby, wassup?!” *laugh*). None of them follow this 'formula', because they are 'Advanced Profiles 202', and I can't tell *anyone* how to do that, so the above is just a first step for those who are struggling.
I'd also point out the obvious: your reference there is for a vanilla dating site, not targeted advice for submissive men. So what? Well, you tell a dominant woman how she should be to interest you and you are already half way out the door. “Ciao baby, you can piss off with telling me what your criteria is for me”. Even if I actually meet all of those criteria, unless it's *very* well done (vs a ham fisted list), the knee jerk reaction is likely to be something like “Don't tell me how to be!”, and yes, I know that's unfair.
Dominant women are generally very wary of submissive men who come across as providing a description of what they want in/from a woman. It's not that you shouldn't *want* whatever you want in your partner, and it's unfair, but you risk putting yourself into the basket with the ones who are saying “… and when you spank me, you should wear a leather corset, stockings and heels of no less than 5 inches…” That sort of thing has soured any hint of it, no matter how innocuous.
If you point me to your profile, or send me a draft, I will be happy to give my honest opinion. Just be prepared for the “Hey baby, wassup?!” if it's absolute perfection…
I actually stumbled across this Blog due to a friend of yours, Hasenpfeffer. We were chatting about the terrible emails I sometimes receive from submissive males, and I explained to him my policy of giving them advice for the next time they contacted a Dominant and sending them on their way. He mentioned that you do the same thing. It amuses me. And here I thought I was the only one who passed out advice to subs like cookies.
Anyway, from now on, I'll be sure to give them advice, *and* point them in your direction (if you don’t mind of course; luckily, the influx of messages has slowed ever since Hasenpfeffer became my submissive, since I‘m monogamous). I honestly believe most submissive men with poor profiles and bad messages really aren't aware of what image they’re projecting. I take the stance that maybe we ladies should tell them what we don't want, instead of just ignoring that badly-typed message. Not only would we be helping another Domme down the road, but we’d also be helping that submissive find his way.
Lady D: “I actually stumbled across this Blog due to a friend of yours, Hasenpfeffer.”
Hello and welcome! He is a sweetheart, and I am so glad you found each other!
“And here I thought I was the only one who passed out advice to subs like cookies.”
*smile* You aren't! My responses do vary widely depending on the type of email they have written. 'My sent emails' range from genuinely helpful to just playing for my own amusement.
“I honestly believe most submissive men with poor profiles and bad messages really aren't aware of what image they’re projecting.”
I think you are little more generous here than I am. I think *some* are genuinely perplexed and just need a hand. I think *most*, though, are scattergunning to find some wank material. I usually find that differentiating them is not difficult.
“I take the stance that maybe we ladies should tell them what we don't want, instead of just ignoring that badly-typed message.”
I do it, but I completely understand why other women don't. I know some are much more sensitive than me and get genuinely disheartened /hurt /angry /offended or otherwise feel assaulted by it (like walking past a building site and having 30+ men all cat calling aggressively at you), and they do not want to deal with it.
I have also been lucky (or something) in that I have never been abused in response to my sending off a reply to someone. I know that happens also, and if I got a few of those, I would probably reconsider replying or trying to help.
“Anyway, from now on, I'll be sure to give them advice, *and* point them in your direction”
Please do! I figure if we help out even one genuine submissive, it's worth it!