Nobody ever talks about ‘force’ as a kink.
We frequently hear about ‘forced’ activities, but the focus is always on the activity rather than the force.
Now, I know the term ‘force’ raises some hackles, so how about we say force = coercion? Hmm… that sounds just as bad doesn’t it?
It’s a tricky thing to talk about because people are all ‘well you’re just ‘making’ them do something they wanted to do anyway, they should just own it!’ and that’s not what it is, or, at least, that’s not what I’m talking about. The word ‘making’ is still in inverted commas when force is a kink, but no, they really don’t want to do the thing, for really-real they don’t, and they absolutely can be ‘made’ to do it.
It doesn’t have to be physical force, it can be mental or emotional or simply ‘force of will’.
So let me set a scene. I *make* my boy do something that he genuinely doesn’t like (not a hard limit)… No gun to his head – I may shove him about, use my serious ‘don’t fuck with me’ voice, ignore his reluctance, use ‘the look’, maybe slap him around a bit, snarl at him… that sort of thing. He doesn’t want to, but what he wants even less is to displease me, to say no, to go against what I want. This is edge play of a kind because if you get it wrong, you’re fucked.
Making him do something he dislikes makes him feel small, insecure, vulnerable (which I adore), and his reactions turn me on (hot hot hot!), which turns him on. So he is then embarrassed that something he doesn’t like turns him on, that he has no control over his arousal, and the loss of control there turns him on further.
So in the end, he still dislikes the thing, doesn’t want to do it, but he loves being ‘made to do it’ because of the control aspect and because he loves how it makes him feel, he loves my reaction to it.
People are complex, especially when feelings are involved, and it may be that he can’t even explain to himself exactly why he kinks on being forced, which is one of the reasons why the talk around this is clumsy and often single-note (and tends to get a lot of pushback).
But in this, when it’s a kink, the force is the entire point. The ‘thing he’s being forced to do’ is just a tool to get at those feelings.
Do you recognise ‘force’ as a kink in and of itself? If so, why do you think it is that no-one ever talks about it?
* Recycled from a post I made on Fetlife
Force as an abstract can be a kink or fetish. But because it is a none corporal thing the focus must be on the act that is forced. To fantasize about a powerful dominate that is someone capable of using force that person needs to use that force or no power is presents.
Mknight: “But because it is a none corporal thing the focus must be on the act that is forced.”
Ok, I read your comment a few times and I think you are saying that without an act, there can be no force.
That's true enough, but if force is the kink, what the act is is rather irrelevant… there has to be *some* act that is forced, sure, and some things will work better than others, but as long as I am *making* him do it, it will work.
Oh, sure! I'm very into that sort of force myself.
Cal: If it's a valid kink, do you want to speculate as to why no-one ever talks about it? Why it's not on any fetish lists?
Force is not a kink, force is kink. BSDM is about what in the vanilla world would be considered force. There is something in the submissive that finds force attractive. There is also something in the Domme that also finds force attractive.
A sub may be “forced” to stand naked in the corner. He may be “forced” to be chained to a rack and flogged. He may be “forced” to wear a chastity devise and not cum for extended periods of time. None of these things would be something that if one did not have a Kink for would only be done when “forced”.A sub submits to the Domme's force. It is inherent globally in the relationship.
“ It is inherent globally in the relationship.”
Very well put Robert. I totally agree with you.
As to why force is not talked about, perhaps it is, in part, due to the way it has been portrayed in the vanilla world.
The terms “abuse” and “force” are often mistakenly used interchangeably. As most people would not like to be seen as an abuser,(even in the privacy of their own thoughts) the concept of force is politely danced around in the D/s world.
robert: “Force is not a kink, force is kink. BSDM is about what in the vanilla world would be considered force.”
I disagree. I don't define control and obedience as force. I gave the example to make the distinction.
I do NOT force my boy to stand in the corner, or to be in chastity, or most other things. I tell him to do it and he does it because he chooses to submit to me.
Force is only necessary where there is resistance, and even then, there are many other choices for overcoming resistance.
I can convince, seduce, cajole, reason, or do any number of other things. Force is barrelling through with brute pushing, steamrolling over objections.
Lots of people never use force in their BDSM relationships. The day that they have to do so, as far as they are concerned, the relationship is over.
slapshot: “As to why force is not talked about, perhaps it is, in part, due to the way it has been portrayed in the vanilla world.”
Well, that doesn't really make sense when you think about what a fetish list looks like. It includes whipping, caning, beating, spanking… loads of acts that are much more easily pointed at as 'abusive'.
Yes, definitely. I can make it work for me if he is pretending he doesn't like something, but my fantasy is force. It is hard to achieve but hot as anything.
I think a lot of people who 'do' BDSM do seem to ignore this and to focus on the actual acts – more of a fetish focus I suppose.
Mab: “Yes, definitely. I can make it work for me if he is pretending he doesn't like something, but my fantasy is force. It is hard to achieve but hot as anything.”
It *can* be hard to achieve. It doesn't work for me if it's not genuine resistance and genuine discomfort that I have to push through. But as I say that, I *can* also enjoy making him do things that he likes in a very particular way, so I get to use physical and verbal force for when, where, how. Not quite the same, but still good.
“I think a lot of people who 'do' BDSM do seem to ignore this and to focus on the actual acts – more of a fetish focus I suppose.”
Yes, I guess my confusion is that if it's a kink, then it should have equal footing with any other kink, but the only places it turns up regularly is in 'forced femme' and 'forced bi' fetishes. I find it odd.
'robert: “Force is not a kink, force is kink. BSDM is about what in the vanilla world would be considered force.”
Ferns: I disagree. I don't define control and obedience as force. I gave the example to make the distinction.'
I'm with robert on this, Ferns, and would politely suggest that you're talking bollocks ;-). I think the disagreement between you two goes to the difference between subs' and dommes' respective points of view *in general*. Dommes, I think, don't always realise how much of an internal dialogue between two sides is going on within a sub . . . .
You use the term 'obedience'. How such obedience works for a sub, though, I think goes something like this:
“She's told me to stand against the wall. One part of me feels no fun in this idea at all. But the part of me that wants to be forced, does. And if I say 'no', the dynamic's broken.”.
No kid at school who is told to stand against the wall is 'forced' to do it in a literal, physical sense except by himself – but if he doesn't, again, the 'dynamic' is broken. He'll be sent home instead, presumably.
Put it another way: there's always force. It's just that in 'obedience' the force is the sub's own, on himself. But in requiring him to be obedient, she still demands that he employs that self-forcing. She's forced him to force himself.
The bottom line is – though a domme might see a clear difference in that, to the sub, force is force is force. It can feel the same.
As for why the 'activity' (e.g. 'forced femme') always gets the focus and not the forcing per se – I think this is quite basic: people generally do focus on activities rather than the feelings behind them. The former are complicated. The latter make for nice, crisp, 'observable data'. They're seen as 'more real'.
I always tried to find a word, a phrase.. some sort of definition.. to describe exactly what your post nailed so that I could have an explanation for myself.
I find this so fucking hot. I love being “forced” to do something I don't want to do.
Thanks for your definition.
Anonymous: “I find this so fucking hot. I love being “forced” to do something I don't want to do.”
“Thanks for your definition.”
May you have many happy hours arguing over it with all and sundry! Heh.
Anonymous XXXXXX: Dammit, I keep thinking of more to say on this!
“You use the term 'obedience'. How such obedience works for a sub, though, I think goes something like this…”
Yes, but you are making a different point than the one I am trying to get to, and this is maybe why these discussions never go anywhere.
We are now discussing discussing definitions, which is often what it boils down to.
To me, capital F Force is using brutish methods to power through genuine resistance. THAT's what I am trying to get to, an understanding of whether that is a specific kink and if it is, an understanding why no-one talks about it.
Small f force is the normal dynamic that you are talking about. I understand you saying it's the same thing, but I disagree. I *would* agree that they are on a sliding scale, but this kind of force is an inherent part of the dynamic, so it makes perfect sense to me that no-one ever calls it out as a 'thing' and talks about it. Without this, there is no dynamic, but without Force, D/s can live happily ever after. Small f force is 'the' kink behind D/s, ok, but that's not what I am talking about.
“As for why the 'activity' (e.g. 'forced femme') always gets the focus and not the forcing per se – I think this is quite basic: people generally do focus on activities rather than the feelings behind them. The former are complicated. The latter make for nice, crisp, 'observable data'. They're seen as 'more real'.”
Yes, it's true, I find it rather disappointing because the *activity* is not as interesting to me and I NEVER get to hear about how Force works for people.
“…to the sub, force is force is force. It can feel the same.”
I guess if you say they both feel the same, that is my question answered from your perspective, though that beggars belief (in fact, now I would call 'bollocks!' on you!). I cannot believe that overcoming your own internal conflict to do something is *anything* like being Forced to do it… both the mental AND physical headspace is completely different.
With Force, the internal conflict is irrelevant, you can allow yourself to *not* fight it internally, you get to fully feel that 'don't want to' feeling, in fact you can act it out physically, and being able to do that heightens the contrast between what you feel and what you will be *made* to do. The fact that you will be *made* to do it without having resolved that internal conflict puts the control aspect into hyperdrive.
*sigh* That's the sort of thing I wanted to hear about, because that's hot.
I think the type of forcing you may be referring to is coded under other names such as mental control or mental restraints. And I don't think that people are openly shunning it more so it's a underlying nuance of BDSM. It has to exist to an extent whether we acknowledge it or not.
Mistress L: “I think the type of forcing you may be referring to is coded under other names such as mental control or mental restraints.”
No, and I wonder if *this* is why people don't talk about it. There seems to be no easy way to make the distinction with clarity. I am trying and failing!
You are talking about small f force.
It's like the difference between having sex (maybe when he doesn't really feel like it, but does it anyway because you say so) and rape play. I don't think anyone would say they were the same thing, would they? To me, that illustrates the difference between force and *Force*.
I love force, especially when it's something you know you should do (IE, household chores, schoolwork) but really don't want to.
Oh, I agree with you completely, Ferns. I completely have a force kink, but I've had real trouble expressing what I like. For years I've said to my boyfriend, “What I like is when you DOMINATE me,” and he's all like, what does that mean? I finally just slapped the label “humiliation” onto it, because usually in humiliation play there's some kind of resistance–but the thing is that lots of times I don't feel emotionally humiliated.
Anyway, I agree it's on a sliding scale. There are things he forces me to do that I really want to do but he has to push to get me there, and there are things I don't want to do that he has to shove through, and there are things I'm just not into but I do for him, and it's all a different flavor of something similar.
Nice post. I will think about it more.
Fae: “I love force, especially when it's something you know you should do (IE, household chores, schoolwork) but really don't want to.”
Ha! I once chained one of my boys to his desk to work on his PhD, but it was more lower case f force than capital F Force.
sera: “Oh, I agree with you completely, Ferns. I completely have a force kink, but I've had real trouble expressing what I like…”
This. God, no wonder!
Luckily, as the dominant, I don't have to *express* it, or explain it, I can just do it. It is *much* harder for submissives to articulate it.
“Please, I'd really love it if you Forced me to do blah sometime”
“Oh, you want to do blah?”
“No, I don't! I want you to *make* me do it, Force me to do it”
“Well, you must want to do it if you want me to force you to do it…”
“No, I really don't want to do it, it's the 'making me' bit that I want…”
“Well why would I want to makeyou do something that you say you really don't want to do… obviously you really *do* want to do it??!!!”
*sigh* “Never mind”
I feel your pain, sera!
I know I'm late to the party, but had to respond as this hit a tone with me. As soneone who has just recently started exploring the BDSM world.. its been difficult trying to explain how I feel I fit. I don't identify as submissive at all, and bottom never felt right either. But force as a kink.. yeah, that fits me well. When the mode overcomes me, I usually announce to my partner that I need to battle. I want to/ need to lose, but the power play and the resulting force is the ultimate turn on for me.
I think its not talked about much because its an underlying thread to a lot of play…simple acts such as the hand to the throat, pinning the arms over head, bondage, spanking, etc. These are all forms of force that are common themes throughtout BDSM.
Maggie: Welcome to the party!!
“When the mode overcomes me, I usually announce to my partner that I need to battle. I want to/ need to lose, but the power play and the resulting force is the ultimate turn on for me.”
Yes, that totally works!! In a F/m relationship, that's tough to get to. Unless I severely knobble him, I am never going to win a physical fight against a boy. And having to constrain him in some way then makes it into a sort of funny-odd game playing thing which doesn't work so well.
“I think its not talked about much because its an underlying thread to a lot of play…simple acts such as the hand to the throat, pinning the arms over head, bondage, spanking, etc. These are all forms of force that are common themes throughtout BDSM.”
Yes, but that's small f force, not capital F force. I tried to make the distinction (and failed pretty much!) and it is discussed a lot in the comments above. I do think, though, that the difficulty in distinction is a reason it's not discussed so much.
“Yes, but that's small f force, not capital F force. I tried to make the distinction (and failed pretty much!) and it is discussed a lot in the comments above. I do think, though, that the difficulty in distinction is a reason it's not discussed so much.”
Yes those were small examples, but as others have noted, I'm not sure its a small force versus large force… more like a sliding scale. Maybe that's why the distinction is so hard to find. I mean for me the two extremes would be the times I am resisting and a few smacks put me back into a more submissive frame of mind and our battles, which can range the entire house and leave us both a bit battered and bruised. But there are so many levels inbetween as well. The question would then be, at what point do you cross from the force to the Force?
Maggie: “…more like a sliding scale. Maybe that's why the distinction is so hard to find.”
I think you are right there. Even if we take something like sex vs rape play, the line is still not quite clear… there is no real way to say 'that point… that's it'.
“The question would then be, at what point do you cross from the force to the Force?”
For me personally, it's clear because I normally don't use Force, so when I do I know it, he knows it. But a big part of that clarity is in my head. When I counter genuine resistance with brute Force, that's it (and being a F/m dynamic, 'brute Force' is not generally pure physical force, though there may be a physical component).
I have a myriad of techniques that I would normally use to get past resistance… To me, Force is when I eschew those and barrel through his resistance without him having to overcome his own internal conflict (he gets to *keep* that internal conflict because I don't care about it).
Normally, with small f force, my approach is to help him work through that internal conflict in some way to bring him along with me (or I let him work through it himself). Capital F Force is when I don't bother to do that, I just push him through that resistance and usually there is a mental, emotional, and physical component to doing that.